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Al Gore admits impact of CO2 on climate change may be less significant than he thought NASA study names several "greenhouse culprits" Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   terryowens__ Icon

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:45 AM

"Those conversations led Gore to politically inconvenient conclusions in this new book. In his conversations with Schmidt and other colleagues at the beginning of the year, Gore explored new studies – published only last week – that show methane and black carbon or soot had a far greater impact on global warming than previously thought. Carbon dioxide – while the focus of the politics of climate change – produces around 40% of the actual warming. Gore acknowledged to Newsweek that the findings could complicate efforts to build a political consensus around the need to limit carbon emissions.

“Over the years I have been among those who focused most of all on CO2, and I think that’s still justified,” he told the magazine. “But a comprehensive plan to solve the climate crisis has to widen the focus to encompass strategies for all” of the greenhouse culprits identified in the Nasa study."






You know, I don't have a problem with Gore's message of being more energy efficient and changing the energy grid, but don't pimp a global carbon tax with a flawed argument and make the US look like a bunch of jackasses any more than we already have.
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#2 User is offline   terryowens__ Icon

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:46 AM

From the release of his new book...

http://worldbbnews.c...ent-on-climate/
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#3 User is offline   RockPaperScissors Icon

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 09:19 AM

I agree with snake (gasp) that a lot of this is about money and we are far from having a complete understanding of the workings of our environment.

But like the OP said, there is NOTHING wrong with cleaning up pollution, being more energy-efficient, and reducing the need for foreign oil (or oil at all, really). Really annoying to see people thumb their nose at these ideas just because they disagree with Gore's politics and party affiliation.
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Posted 05 November 2009 - 09:31 AM

I really doubt Gore is just doing this for the money, the guy is set for life, his kids lives, and his grandkids lives. What he is saying is what most 'scientists' have been saying for over a year now.
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Posted 05 November 2009 - 09:34 AM

View PostRockPaperScissors, on 05 November 2009 - 09:19 AM, said:

I agree with snake (gasp) that a lot of this is about money and we are far from having a complete understanding of the workings of our environment.

But like the OP said, there is NOTHING wrong with cleaning up pollution, being more energy-efficient, and reducing the need for foreign oil (or oil at all, really). Really annoying to see people thumb their nose at these ideas just because they disagree with Gore's politics and party affiliation.

It actually has a lot to do with the science on the issue becoming more and more clear, and as a person who actually talks to scientists and cares about the nuts and bolts of the issue, Al Gore isn't afraid to continue learning more about the problem. He isn't afraid to refine what he knows in spite of political rantings on the issue.

Some things to note though. Methane has always been known to be a more potent GHG, but its emissions are increasing now more so than in the past. However it, like the black carbon soot, falls out of the atmosphere in a relatively short amount of time whereas CO2 stays up there for a long long time. Conversely it's believed that reducing methane and soot emissions will be significantly easier than CO2, and once stopped their effects can be negated in under a decade whereas again, CO2 will still be up there.

One of the biggest concerns climate scientists have had is with the permafrost melting and releasing ungodly amounts of methane (and CO2) into the atmosphere in a negative feedback loop. This most recent study simply confirms that as a horrifying prediction that we must work to avoid, especially as it's becoming a reality.

This post has been edited by BrockSamson: 05 November 2009 - 09:36 AM

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 09:54 AM

More from the Newsweek article plus a link:

"As they reported last week in Science—findings that Gore got hold of last spring—methane accounts for about 27 percent of the man-made warming so far, largely because of how it interacts with atmospheric aerosols. Halocarbons have caused 8 percent of the warming; black carbon (sooty emissions from burning wood, dung, and diesel), 12 percent; carbon monoxide and volatile organics, 7 percent—and carbon dioxide, 43 percent.

Depending on your bent, you can append an "only" to that last number. On the one hand, the NASA calculations provide a glimmer of hope. Reducing CO2 emissions strikes at the lifeblood of the global economy—namely fossil fuels, which provide 86.5 percent of the world's energy. But targeting other greenhouse gases is "likely to be much more cost-effective than CO2-only strategies," the NASA team writes in Science. For example, methane emissions could be cut by changing farm practices and by capturing the huge quantities that are flared at oil wells. And "removing one ton of black carbon will have the same [climate] effect as removing 2,000 to 3,000 tons of CO2," says climatologist Veerabhadran Ramanathan of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, who talked to Gore for hours about it. "The technology is there—you can buy a $250 diesel filter for your Mercedes—and the beauty of black carbon is that if you cut it today, it's gone in a month because rain causes it to fall out. [CO2 stays up for decades.] By going after other greenhouse gases we can buy the planet time, postponing by 30 to 50 years the day when warming exceeds 2 degrees." At 2 degrees, sea-level rise, droughts, floods, and other climate disasters will likely kick in with a vengeance."


Newsweek

Again, it shows that Gore and NASA aren't just interested in some money grab, they're interested in actually finding the solutions. They're not limiting themselves to just "pimping a carbon tax" as the OP suggested. There is stuff in his new book about soil sequestration, biofuels, solar, wind...it's a comprehensive approach to the largest long-term problem facing our society.
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#7 User is offline   terryowens__ Icon

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 04:58 PM

View Postsnake, on 05 November 2009 - 02:50 PM, said:

People are opposed to Demonizing the oil companies when their products brought us out of the dark ages and continue to be a MOST necessary product, in so many ways.


Really? I think a lot of people would be happy if they never had to step foot in a scummy gas station again.

The people who are opposed to implementing alt energy ARE the oil and auto companies. They don't want to let solar or wind power out of the box because they would have to reorganize their entire business that was built in the "Dark Ages" of the Industrial Revolution. They also don't want to lose their government welfare check they receive from taxpayer funded subsidies to do so much business overseas.

We are letting these powerful corporations SQUANDER our existing technologies. They pay it lip service with fancy commercials that make us feel all warm and bubbly inside, but they leave the patents on the shelf with Indiana Jones' Lost Ark in the 50 mile long underground time locked warehouse. They have built an industry that benefits from everybody going back to the pump. Not as much money to be made when all the energy comes from the elements that EVERYBODY HAS ACCESS TO.

It's a **** shame is what it is. Think of all the money this country could be saving if we stored enough sunlight or wind energy in a cell that could power our houses, our cars....then all you need petrol for is to make cheap crap to sell @ Wal Mart. But the big corps like Big Oil aren't about to let that money walk out the door. Not with all the political influence they have.

I understand a "Carbon Tax" is just a tool that attempts to force industries that are dragging their feet into developing alternative energy, a scenario that would greatly benefit more American families in the long run. But I'm afraid Al Gore has bitten off more than he can chew trying to convince people that CO2 is THE REASON we need to do what we know we need to do anyway.

It's like Saddam. I probably don't have a problem with lighting a firecracker in Saddam's ***, but the way the BA handled it was absolutely despicable and disgusting. Al Gore is using fear and paranoia to the same effect as the "Terror alerts" when really he should just concentrate on telling people that a Green Transition will be a lot cheaper in the long run. So much money to be saved when we don't have to police the Middle East to ensure the flow of oil, when we can cut corporate welfare for multinational industries who get paid to export industry and labor OUT of America, and when we CAPITALIZE on new technology that will make us well paid and highly respected entrepreneurs.

Nope snake. I think the people who are dragging their feet are the people who stand to lose their business to newer technology. I thought you would be a guy that favored progress and free market enterprise?? **** if it wasn't for the Japanese to dig the schematics out of the trash, we wouldn't even see the hybrid autos we have right now.
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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:05 AM

An inconvenient retraction from Gore. Good for him.

My objection with Gore has been his misinformation, much like ALGORE posts. I can't forget how many people bought the CO2 propaganda when his film came out, LOL. ooops.
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#9 User is offline   BrockSamson Icon

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:21 AM

View Postterryowens__, on 05 November 2009 - 04:58 PM, said:

Al Gore is using fear and paranoia to the same effect as the "Terror alerts" when really he should just concentrate on telling people that a Green Transition will be a lot cheaper in the long run.



I agree that the messaging could be better, however I disagree that he is using fear and paranoia. He is using the most up to date research and the most expert advice. Reporting that information is not using fear and paranoia. The climate crisis is one of if not the greatest man-made threats to our way of live, and outside of him it doesn't get nearly enough attention. Watching the news media you barely see it...stories like bubble boy command more attention.

It's actually something that he talks about in his new book, that simply laying out the facts and numbers doesn't work. For the population at large the concept is so hard to comprehend. They don't see it as an immediate threat (and for most of us, it's not), and it's easier for them to ignore it or simply cast it as some elaborate hoax than to actually accept that it is real, it is happening, and we have to face real challenges and sacrifices to face it if we care to preserve a livable climate for our children and grandchildren.

Honestly it brings to mind Easter Island, and those few individuals that must have been standing there saying "hey...you probably shouldn't cut down that last batch of trees. It's not just our wood for fires and building, it will pretty much destroy our agriculture and the very foundations of our society." I don't think he's using fear and paranoia anymore than they were.
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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:25 AM

View PostAtlsport, on 06 November 2009 - 09:05 AM, said:

An inconvenient retraction from Gore. Good for him.

My objection with Gore has been his misinformation, much like ALGORE posts. I can't forget how many people bought the CO2 propaganda when his film came out, LOL. ooops.

Again, it's not a retraction, it's how science works. It moves forward and improves. People should look at it as the fact that he's not purely politically motivated, he's motivated by getting the best information out there.

And CO2, for reasons mentioned above, is still the greatest threat. That is until we melt all the permafrost and release an ungodly amount of both methane and CO2 into the atmosphere.

CO2 is also the prime mover behind ocean acidification.

These scientists who are showing the particular impacts of each gas are the same ones who run realclimate.org, NASA's best. Ask them if we can now just forget about C02, or if his film was just C02 propaganda.
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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:36 AM

Its big of him to admit that.
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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:40 AM

View Postsnake, on 05 November 2009 - 08:16 AM, said:

ALGOREs trying Now to launch a Jihad against other GHG's so he can form side companies to include these. 1st global warmng went to Climate change, and everything causes it from cows, eating meat, blah, blah, blah, and now its not just C02, its all GHGs that need to be managed. He's casting a wider net to catch more fish, I mean money.


How can you have a holy war against an incombustible gas? I assume you knew what jihad meant, but that may be too big of an assumption.
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Posted 06 November 2009 - 11:14 AM

View PostBrockSamson, on 06 November 2009 - 10:25 AM, said:

Again, it's not a retraction, it's how science works. It moves forward and improves. People should look at it as the fact that he's not purely politically motivated, he's motivated by getting the best information out there.

And CO2, for reasons mentioned above, is still the greatest threat. That is until we melt all the permafrost and release an ungodly amount of both methane and CO2 into the atmosphere.

CO2 is also the prime mover behind ocean acidification.

These scientists who are showing the particular impacts of each gas are the same ones who run realclimate.org, NASA's best. Ask them if we can now just forget about C02, or if his film was just C02 propaganda.


He is not a scientist, he is a politician and I gave the guy credit for what I called a retraction, whether anyone else calls it that or not. If you don't want to accept that for what its worth then so be it. As a politician, and one whom I regard as a propagandist it could be argued that it wasn't a retraction in that realm either, because its how politicians work.
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Posted 06 November 2009 - 11:22 AM

View PostAtlsport, on 06 November 2009 - 11:14 AM, said:

He is not a scientist, he is a politician and I gave the guy credit for what I called a retraction, whether anyone else calls it that or not. If you don't want to accept that for what its worth then so be it. As a politician, and one whom I regard as a propagandist it could be argued that it wasn't a retraction in that realm either, because its how politicians work.

I'm just not sure how spreading information on the best science out there is considered propaganda. Dude hasn't run for office in a decade, profits from his film, book, Nobel Prize and green investments go to his non-profit...again, I just don't get the dismissal of a guy who for decades has been trying to get the word out about a major scientific issue. If actual scientists were better at PR, he wouldn't have to. But their job is to research and discover, his is to share those findings. *shrugs*

This post has been edited by BrockSamson: 06 November 2009 - 11:23 AM

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 10:55 AM

An update on this from one of the authors on the Science paper mentioned. I'd recommend reading it at the link to see all the embedded links and figures.

It's all about me (thane)

It’s all about me (thane)! — gavin @ 12 November 2009

Well, it’s not really all about me. But methane has figured strongly in a couple of stories recently and gets an apparently-larger-than-before shout-out in Al Gore’s new book as well. Since a part of the recent discussion is based on a paper I co-authored in Science, it is probably incumbent on me to provide a little context.

First off, these latest results are being strongly misrepresented in certain quarters. It should be obvious, but still bears emphasizing, that redistributing the historic forcings between various short-lived species and CH4 is mainly an accounting exercise and doesn’t impact the absolute effect attributed to CO2 (except for a tiny impact of fossil-derived CH4 on the fossil-derived CO2). The headlines that stated that our work shows a bigger role for CH4 should have made it clear that this is at the expense of other short-lived species, not CO2. Indeed, the attribution of historical forcings to CO2 that we made back in 2006 is basically the same as it is now.

As is well known, methane (CH4) is the greenhouse gas whose anthropogenic increase comes second only to CO2 in its 20th Century effect on climate. It is often stated that methane is ‘roughly 20 times more powerful’ as a greenhouse gas than CO2 and this can refer to one of two (very different) metrics. If you calculate the instantaneous forcing for an equivalent amount of CO2 and CH4 (i.e. for a 1 ppmv increase in both), you find that the global forcing for CH4 is about 23-24 times as large (depending slightly on the background assumed). Separately, if you look up the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of CH4 in IPCC AR4 (the integrated forcing of a kg of CH4 compared to kg of CO2 over a 100 year period), you get a value of about 25. GWP is used to compare the effects of emissions today on climate in the future. The numbers are only coincidentally similar since the GWP incorporates both the weight ratio and the ratio of effective lifetimes in the atmosphere which roughly cancel for a 100 year time-horizon.

In the Second Assessment report (1995), the GWP for methane was 21, and it was increased in AR4 because of a greater appreciation for the indirect effects of methane on atmospheric chemistry, and in particular its role as a tropospheric ozone precursor (since increasing methane leads to an increase in low level ozone). There is also an indirect effect on stratospheric water vapour where methane oxidation is a significant source of water in an otherwise very dry region. Both tropospheric ozone and stratospheric water vapour are effective greenhouse gases so including these indirect effects made the net effect of methane greater.

In the standard ‘forcings bar chart’ such as seen in Hansen’s papers, or in TAR, or AR4 (figure 2.20), each change in atmospheric composition is given a separate column. Thus ozone and aerosol effects are denoted separately. Starting off with a paper we wrote in 2005, though, a different approach that is perhaps more useful to policy makers has also been adopted. This ‘emissions-based’ viewpoint attributes the forcings to the actual emissions, rather than to the eventual concentration. Thus since some of the ozone increase is related to CH4 emissions, you get to include that under CH4. The other ozone precursors (carbon monoxide and volatile organic compounds) can also now be blamed for a portion of the ozone impact.

This was incorporated into figure 2.21 in AR4, where it is clear that the impact of methane (once some indirect effects are included) is greater than you would have thought based on the ‘abundance’ viewpoint. Note the changes basically only affect the reactive species. When thinking about the various metrics, the emissions-based view is more closely tied to GWP than the traditional abundance-based approach. A big difference is that GWP is looking forward in time, while emission-based forcings are looking back at historical events.

The increasing sophistication when it comes to attribution and GWP is strongly connected to the development of more comprehensive Earth System Models (ESM) in recent years. These are the descendants of the General Circulation Models of the climate that have been developed over the last 30 years, but that now include interactive atmospheric chemistry, aerosols (natural and anthropogenic) and sometimes full carbon cycles in the ocean and land surface. This extra machinery allows for new kinds of experiments to be done. Traditionally, in a GCM, one would impose atmospheric composition forcings by changing the concentrations of the species in the atmosphere e.g. the CO2 level could be increased, you could add more sulphate, or adjust the ozone in the stratosphere etc. However, with an ESM you can directly input the emissions (of all of the relevant precursors) and then see what ozone levels or aerosol concentrations you end up with. This allows you to ask more policy-relevant questions regarding the net effects of a particular sector’s emissions or the impact of a specific policy on climate forcing and air pollution (see here for a discussion).

Our new Science paper (Shindell et al, 2009) expands on some of the earlier work (as was discussed here) and extended consideration of the indirect effects of CH4 and CO (carbon monoxide) to aerosols as well. This is necessary since SO2 requires oxidants to transform to sulphates (and so is affected by the perturbation of the chemistry by other emissions), and it takes into account the competition between nitrates and sulphates for ammonia (which means that there is a small anti-phasing effect – increasing sulphates tends to decrease nitrates and vice versa). When we did this, we found that methane’s impacts increased even further since increasing methane lowers OH and so slows the formation of sulphate aerosol and, since sulphates are cooling, having less of them is an additional warming effect. This leads to an increase in the historical attribution to methane (by a small amount), but actually makes a much bigger difference to the GWP of methane (which increases to about 33 – though with large error bars).

Currently methane levels are relatively stable (despite small upticks in the last two years) and are running below IPCC projections made in 2001 (this of course is good news). However, CH4 is at more than twice its pre-industrial concentration and so still presents a tempting target for emission reductions which, because of our new work and the relatively short lifetime in the atmosphere, will likely be a little more effective at reducing future forcings than previously thought. Given the value of methane as a fuel, it is likely that more of it will be captured (as in this recent story).

CO2, however, is still increasing dramatically despite the slow down in the economy, and so current growth in radiative forcings is dominated by CO2 and that will very likely continue for decades. Despite our increasing appreciation of the role of other forcings (including land use for instance), the overwhelming driver of climate change in the 21st Century will be CO2 increases.

In a follow-up post, I’ll discuss the sources of methane and the implications of the new results for attribution of climate forcing to different sectors (including agriculture), where there have been some very odd (i.e. wrong) recently published numbers.
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Posted 19 November 2009 - 01:43 AM

View PostBrockSamson, on 05 November 2009 - 07:34 AM, said:

It actually has a lot to do with the science on the issue becoming more and more clear, and as a person who actually talks to scientists and cares about the nuts and bolts of the issue, Al Gore isn't afraid to continue learning more about the problem. He isn't afraid to refine what he knows in spite of political rantings on the issue.


Part of my issue with Al Gore pushing the "Global Warming" issue so hard is that he did it before all the facts were in...

His pushing led to more people buying into the theory that automobiles were a large contributor to the problem...

More people buying into the theory led to a cry for change in automobiles...

The cry for change led to CAFE standards being implemented...

CAFE standards being implemented led to US auto makers trying to be like foreign auto makers...

US auto makers trying to be like foreign auto makers led to getting away from what they were best at (trucks and muscle cars)...

Getting away from what they were best at led to a decline in their sales...

A decline in their sales led to low profit margins...

Low profit margins led to a government bailout...

A government bailout led to money being given to a company that no longer was any good at what it did so that the economy wouldn't completely collapse...

Money being given to a company that no longer was any good at what it did so that the economy wouldn't completely collapse...

A prominent factor in our current economic situation stems from misinformation being peddled as truth.
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Posted 19 November 2009 - 02:20 AM

View PostBrockSamson, on 05 November 2009 - 09:34 AM, said:

It actually has a lot to do with the science on the issue becoming more and more clear, and as a person who actually talks to scientists and cares about the nuts and bolts of the issue, Al Gore isn't afraid to continue learning more about the problem. He isn't afraid to refine what he knows in spite of political rantings on the issue.

Some things to note though. Methane has always been known to be a more potent GHG, but its emissions are increasing now more so than in the past. However it, like the black carbon soot, falls out of the atmosphere in a relatively short amount of time whereas CO2 stays up there for a long long time. Conversely it's believed that reducing methane and soot emissions will be significantly easier than CO2, and once stopped their effects can be negated in under a decade whereas again, CO2 will still be up there.

One of the biggest concerns climate scientists have had is with the permafrost melting and releasing ungodly amounts of methane (and CO2) into the atmosphere in a negative feedback loop. This most recent study simply confirms that as a horrifying prediction that we must work to avoid, especially as it's becoming a reality.


It's a little bit pretentious to think that we can really control the climates of the world. We can't predict weather (El/La Nino/a is unpredictable). We are physically at the mercy of our environment, and some of us think that with our exhaust pipes and smoke stacks that we can kill off thousands of species including our own. I'm not sold on it. I used to be more onboard the Al Gore train, but his research always seems to be too far ahead of where the consensus lies. I've always thought that we should go green to cut the middle east and south america out of our equation.

it would be a positive feedback loop. a negative one would be a good thing ;) just wanted to be a little bit pretentious
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#18 User is offline   BrockSamson Icon

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 09:29 AM

View Post.CharlestonChad., on 19 November 2009 - 02:20 AM, said:

It's a little bit pretentious to think that we can really control the climates of the world. We can't predict weather (El/La Nino/a is unpredictable). We are physically at the mercy of our environment, and some of us think that with our exhaust pipes and smoke stacks that we can kill off thousands of species including our own. I'm not sold on it. I used to be more onboard the Al Gore train, but his research always seems to be too far ahead of where the consensus lies. I've always thought that we should go green to cut the middle east and south america out of our equation.

it would be a positive feedback loop. a negative one would be a good thing ;) just wanted to be a little bit pretentious

Indeed it is a positive feedback, thank you.

The thing is, no one is talking about "controlling" the climate...except some insane geo-engineering folks. What science is discussing is humans contributing to a key element of the climate, one that has been shown to have a forcing effect on the climate. We're not controlling it by any means, as the results of our contributions will have effects we certainly don't want and wouldn't allow if we were controlling it.

I hear that argument a lot though, that it's either arrogant or pretentious to think little ole man can affect our climate. I wonder if viruses and bacteria think it's arrogant that they can take down a man or an elephant...after all, they're so small in comparison. If we set off every nuclear weapon on the planet, do you think it might affect the climate? Man has opened the power of the atom and sent other men into space. We may just be animals, but we're like no animals the world has ever seen.

Maybe it's a bit arrogant, but it's foolish to think 6 billion people pumping metric tons of a key climate element into the system can't have an effect, and it's down right ignorant to ignore the issue because we don't want to be arrogant. It's ignorant to ignore the bedrock of climate science, built by thousands of scientists, examined by hundreds of thousands of scientists, withstanding decades of scrutiny by those who would love to prove it wrong and open up entire new fields of study. It's not arrogance that deforestation can affect the climate. It's not arrogance that greenhouse gases affect the climate. It's not arrogance to see migration patterns shifting in birds, mammals, fish and butterflies, to watch corals dying, to see the ocean acidifying. It's science, and it's screaming at us to stop worrying about being arrogant and start worrying about the planet we leave to our children and grandchildren.

Arrogance is thinking we're the only thing that can affect our surroundings. Ignorance is thinking we have no effect.

This post has been edited by BrockSamson: 19 November 2009 - 09:31 AM

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 09:12 PM

View Postterryowens__, on 05 November 2009 - 01:45 AM, said:

"Those conversations led Gore to politically inconvenient conclusions in this new book. In his conversations with Schmidt and other colleagues at the beginning of the year, Gore explored new studies – published only last week – that show methane and black carbon or soot had a far greater impact on global warming than previously thought. Carbon dioxide – while the focus of the politics of climate change – produces around 40% of the actual warming. Gore acknowledged to Newsweek that the findings could complicate efforts to build a political consensus around the need to limit carbon emissions.

“Over the years I have been among those who focused most of all on CO2, and I think that’s still justified,” he told the magazine. “But a comprehensive plan to solve the climate crisis has to widen the focus to encompass strategies for all” of the greenhouse culprits identified in the Nasa study."






You know, I don't have a problem with Gore's message of being more energy efficient and changing the energy grid, but don't pimp a global carbon tax with a flawed argument and make the US look like a bunch of jackasses any more than we already have.



Mr. I invented the internet Al Gore is now back peddaling about warming, I like Gore but he has shot his mouth off that later bites him. :P
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Posted 20 November 2009 - 12:08 AM

View Postnativefalcon, on 19 November 2009 - 09:12 PM, said:

Mr. I invented the internet Al Gore is now back peddaling about warming, I like Gore but he has shot his mouth off that later bites him. :P

Again, he's not back pedaling. I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.
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